A Chat Around the Table

Much of this was poorly worded last night as I posted it. I have tried to fix it but who knows if it reads any better. I think all I did was just add a whole lot more circle dancing. And above all remember my caveat, "I'm no expert" and I am in no position to teach anyone about any thing, except of course my children.

The dinner is cleared, the house noise is quieting down, it is a good time to just sit around and chat. There's still some wine left, it didn't all spill, there's a cold one in the fridge or there is always a pitcher of water on the side board. I sat on Dirt's motorcycle for most of the day today so I'm going to go grab a cushion from the living room.

What's on the table tonight is the subject of prayer and it started from Alan Knox's Scripture... As We Live It #21 (Please go there, it really is a thought provoking blog, but if you'd rather stay here for the discussion without having to run around here is what he wrote:

Here is the twenty-first installment of "Scripture... As We Live It":Pray (without ceasing) very often occasionally in church and at meals. (1 Thessalonians 5:17 re-mix)

The words in parenthesis are the ones that are struck through which for some reason unknown to me didn't follow me over here from there. Strike through is not a skill I have bothered to acquire because, though it's a cute tool, I can't figure out fast enough how to do it. Alan, in his blog posts, every so often likes to strike a line through a correct portion of scripture and replace it with how we appear to read it gaged by our actions. It's very clever and usually elicits a response from me, but then what doesn't, (gotta use those 3 x 20,000 words somewhere)

My comment was:

"That whole praying over the meal thing - which I recognize we are called to do, just can't remember the verse, in 1 Cor. I think, any who - it drives me when the blessing for the meal becomes the prayer for the time we spend together, thanksgiving for the nice day and the cool things we did...Just thinking...


So lets talk about mealtime prayer and what I meant by my comment and what I see in scripture on the subject of praying at the meal which I realize is not the original intent of the post that I responded to.

The scripture that I was referring to is:

1Tim 4:3-5 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. NIV

or

forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. NKJ


I came across this verse when looking for scripture for the Sheet Diet (yes, I'll get back there soon) And it shocked me because even though I certainly must have read over this verse a gazillion times, okay, but at least three or four times in a studying manner, I obviously have never really read it. But when I read it this time what I saw, besides further evidence that all things can be eaten and not feared, was, for me, scriptural basis for praying over our meals. Now some one might look at that passage and see that it says by the word of God and prayer the food is consecrated. And some may feel that then if we think that this verse is scriptural justification for something most of us see or saw as just tradition, then we need to not only pray over the meal but read the Bible before the meal also.

I would say that the first part, the consecration by the word of God, has already happened. We acknowledge it by our prayer of thanksgiving for the gift he has given us of a bounty beyond the Law. The word of God has said that any animal four footed, bird or reptile is clean and we ought to not consider it unclean any longer. We haven't been half way consecrating our meals to God all these years we have been doing what we are supposed to do, we just didn't realize we were supposed to, or at least this here person writing this here post did not know that there was scriptural prompting to do so.

I am glad I am free from the Law and I am glad that when I come in from working in the garden about three hours past when I should have and grab a quick bite to eat and forget to pray, I am glad I have not just eaten something that it not clean or spoiled. I am glad I am covered by God's grace and mercy and that I can quickly repent and listen to the Holy Spirit better next time.

There are too many instances in scripture of praying, giving thanks for the meal, when the bread is broken, for this to be an isolated instance and therefore suspect. I was once told that we, Christians, don't build doctrine over something just mentioned once in scripture. I don't know if "I can't form doctrine" effects paying attention to it in other regards, remember I'm not a scholar so I don't know how all that works and what the difference between doctrine and what we do is. But I'm sure I'll get to know what it all means soon. But then again there are plenty of scriptural instances of praying thanksgiving over a meal. What are the instances that I am speaking of? Romans 14:6; 1Cor 10:30; Mk 8:6; Lk 9:16; 24:30; Acts 27:35
And that was from just a quick search. But now I am done chasing my tail all around that and I rest myself at the knowledge that I feel called to pray thanksgiving over a meal although I don't think any thing bad will happen or that I will be haul of to the stake if I mess up and forget to pray over lunch, or dinner or breakfast for that matter.

So what about my original gripe?

I think whether or not we pray all day, we should pray specifically for the meal, thanking Christ for coming to earth to free us from the Law, Sin and Death. We should thank God for a way for our bodies to sustain themselves. We should ask God to fill us grace and mercy for those who do not have the same understanding about God's bounty hat we hold. For we would wish for them to be graceful with us on a spot of lacking we posses.

But mostly that we should not use meal time as the catch all for lost communication though out the day. Maybe if we have forgotten to pray and give thanksgiving all day then we should do so before we come to the table. Maybe it would train us out of not praying without ceasing. But I wouldn't for the life of me call someone out while they were praying about every little thing during the day as my steak grew cold, but then I'm not really hungry right now as I right this. So don't hold me to my present stellar attitude.

Thanks for stopping by.

What Time Is It?

It is 2:15, I am not living on the Artic Circle, consequently it is very dark right now, but in spite of that our rooster is crowing, a lot. And of course Dirt has his conspiracy-nut-job radio on. Is he listening? No but if I turn it off he'll just turn it back on. I am so happy to hear that a disabled turtle was fitted with prosthetics in the form of a skate board so that she can mate again.

Ahh, the things you too could learn if you were up late at night listening to confused roosters crow. My toe aches so much I am not sleeping well but I guess maybe there are some people and situations that need prayer and if I run out of prayers I could read Teresa of Avila.

Yes, dear reader, I have her back so we can begin to go through Interior Castle together.

Friday Gathering

Dear reader last Friday gathering was great, we only wish all of you could be with us at all times!

Phil and I shared our concerns on what corporate prayer looks like in modern church settings, whether it be brick and mortar or in the homes of believers, as opposed to the examples and exhortations to such prayer we see in scripture.

Both Phil and I have concerns about "prayer request" time, what perhaps may be a modern concept. We certainly do see that in past times, whether in the Bible or historical accounts of the lives of true believers, believers ask each other to pray for one another in particular circumstance. However, we think it might taste and smell just a bit different from its current cultural compliment.

Phil especially sees that current practices allow for prayer requests that appear to be manipulation of the individual or group rather than an honest straight forward request and that to be prayed about. Often we can be more preyed upon than prayed upon. Not that we ought not to come to a brother's aid at the mere mention of a trial but let it come as an honest request not dressed up as something else.

My concern is that some of the prayer request I have heard seem to fly in the face of scriptural truth or scriptural guidance for our lives. When it is asked that a group pray about such things there is no avenue for asking if the group really can pray for that request. Or at least I have not witnessed it practiced.

Not only are we accustomed to taking our personal prayers to God when we have not taken into consideration if they might be those asked with wrong motives, that they might be spent on our pleasures (James 4:3 (and more things than just money can be "spent")), but it would appear that in our corporate prayers we greatly avoid this important step. Where is the agreement mentioned in Mathew 18:19?

When Phil and I began to talk about this he strongly wondered what the incident would look like when some one's prayer request was scrutinized. He wondered how many would get up and storm out. Oh, I agree it could look mighty nasty especially if a group that has been being manipulated or subverted for years suddenly decides they have had enough nonsense and tries to do things differently. Scripturally.

Whether a prayer request is deemed manipulation, not in keeping with God's will or perfectly legit, doesn't the idea that we can all be in agreement mean more than maintaining our pride or assuaging our feelings? I would much rather have my pray suggestion or request scrutinized than everyone bow their heads and feign agreement. Leaving me to expect an answer, when in spiritual reality two or three have not gathered in His name and asked about anything.

Oughtn't we be learning, being edified, when we come together? Does that only apply to times of discussion or sharing of scripture or testimonies, all other things, like singing or meal time fellowship, being off limits? Couldn't we learn a great deal about God and ourselves from taking an objective look at what we think we want, what we think God would grant if we only prayed about it in a big group of believers?

Friday's group discussed all these things Phil and I brought. We all concurred in our own words that correction or guidance never seems to go down easy, especially at first, but later on "it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:11) We also agree in the awesome, amazing power of prayers to God.

There were many questions and concerns along with some agreement. We most certainly did not come to any conclusions for our group on how this would look but discussion is opened and let the Holy Spirit work, either in his lighting speed or his glacial speed. The conversation about prayer won't die and this small freakish group of folks who gather on Friday nights will continue to let the Holy Spirit teach, change and mold them.


James 4:3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.

Matthew 18:19 "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them"

Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Conversation

Yesterday, commenting on the post with the quote from Spurgeon, Kathy asked "based on Mark 11:22-26 Will we be given that which we have prayed for and truly expect ?" The passage she cites is as follows: And Jesus answered saying to them, "Have faith in God. Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you. Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."

I shout a solid, "Yes indeed!" to Kathy's question.

Her question brings two things to my mind. Number one, many people want to focus just on what the pray-er is getting out of prayer and not what the pray-er is putting into it. God requests many things from us in various passages much like the request here that asks us to be people that forgive. Kathy included it in her citation and I would say that it is definitely a precursor to praying effectively. One of the other request he makes of us, not only here but other places, is that of being a believing people.

Which brings me to the second thing, that over the years I've met many people that pray very cautiously. Not in the "be careful what you pray for" sense of caution but more along the lines of not wanting to look like God's little fool. I think Spugeon's point is that in spite of how we may worry about looking like a fool, God asks us over and over again to ask. There are many more passages that flesh out exactly what that asking is to look like, but essentially I believe that passages like this one tell us that God desires that we come to him boldly and trustfully. A friend said to me today that it appears as if the emphasis in the Church of Today is all on believing in God but not believing God. Not only are we to trust God for and in everything, we really must trust that he means what he says and that he truly has our best interest.

There are Spiritual laws. Not in the prescriptive sense like speeding laws or other moral laws but descriptive laws, like the law of gravity, or thermodynamics, laws that can't be broken even if you wanted to. The Spiritual world is the true reality, it is more concrete than the one which all but the mystic and the insane commonly refer to as reality, the one that will go on for eternity after this physical realm is long gone, there are descriptive laws in that world as much as this shadow of reality. I wonder if some of the promises that Christ speaks of are not promises as in "if you do this for me, I promise I will do that for you", but instead the promise of reality like, if you step off of the roof of a building, you will fall to the ground.

So I also answer a humble and quiet, "I sure as heck hope so." I sure as heck hope that I am strong enough to be weak enough to ask God to create in me a forgiving heart, a pure heart, to accept the changes He works in me so that my prayers may be effective.

Thank you Kathy for a challenging question and verse, much like an apple a day.